Catholics Through and Through
In all the discussion about theology, dogmatics and so forth, when it finally comes to the union of the two churches, East and West, it will have nothing (or very little) to do with any of the above. Instead, it will all be about the $Benjamins$. This was how a fellow clergyman had once expressed himself (not in so many words). We as Orthodox have nothing against the Catholics returning to their roots and us becoming one large and happy family. The only problem is that Catholics have the same feeling about us becoming Catholic.
Personally I’ve never been bothered much with pictures of the Pope and Patriarch embracing, shaking hands, drinking coffee or what have you. I could be (very) wrong but I have my doubts that it will lead to much more than that. I say this not only because of conservative Orthodox but Catholic as well.
Anyway, got this from here
Union between the Catholic and Orthodox churches is the only solution to the world’s economic, political, and social crisis, according to Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew i and Cardinal Walter Kasper. Speaking at the “feast of St. Andrew” on November 30, Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian unity, stated that unity between the two churches “is not an option, it is a duty.”
According to Catholic and Orthodox leaders alike, there is a need to present a united Catholic-Orthodox front to rising problems such as secularism, Islamism and liberal Christianity. That is why leaders on both sides of the Great Schism of 1054 are calling for “unity among Christians.” That is why Orthodox leaders met with Vatican officials in October last year to sign a document establishing the primacy of the pope over all Catholic and Orthodox bishops—though there is still disagreement on exactly what authorities that status grants the Catholic leader.
As the Orthodox churches move toward unity with Rome, the Vatican has no intentions of compromising its beliefs. As former Pope John Paul ii once wrote, “To believe in Christ means to desire unity; to desire unity means to desire the [Catholic] Church.” Or, as a Global News Wire article said regarding Catholic “concessions” to other churches, “These concessions represent neither a shift nor a softening of the dogmatic positions long held by the Roman church. Rather, the dogma remains deeply entrenched and the concessions are merely a part of the strategy or means by which ‘other Christians’ will be led to accept and unite under Catholic dogma” (Nov. 27, 2003; emphasis ours).
The Catholic Church has catholic ambitions. The word catholic means universal.
The Catholic Church is rallying its daughter churches to its banner and reestablishing control over Europe. To see how this development was prophesied in the Bible, read our article “O Come, All Ye Faithful.”
L. T., who is (I am supposing) a Catholic, wrote something in his comment that struck me as very, very true—at least if he meant it as I took it.
“Till we’re ready to be martyrs next to each other, under the same sword, no real unity is possible.”
This meant so much to me that I have written a short post on my blog, that uses it as the theme, which I have linked back to this post of Fr Milovan’s. That post of mine is essentially the comment I would have left here, so if anyone would like to read it, here’s the link: http://cost-of-discipleship.blogspot.com/2008/12/martyrs-under-same-sword.html
Sometimes the church resembles the world so frightfully much, that I almost want to say I am “in the church but not of it” just as I do hope I am “in the world, but not of it.”
I stand by my teachers, from Mark of Ephesos all the way down to the defenders of Orthodoxy today, and even with the great Coptic father Matta el-Meskeen who said, “The gauge of faith’s exactitude, appropriateness, and even its orthodoxy is manifest in man’s readiness to reject the whole of earthly life, and with that to relinquish all its comfort and false glory if it conflicts with even the least of Christ’s commandments.” Any unity achieved in the wrong way and at the wrong time, is in bad faith, and contrary to true Orthodoxy, which never exchanges its fullness for the whole of earthly life, comfort and false glory.
If Ohrid is no longer a patriarchy, then why is Constantinople? Greek fascism maybe?
Additionally, how will false union help present a united front against secularism, Islam, and liberal Christianity if both we and the Catholics are already against it and teach against it?
Answer: It won’t but will provide more $ for dwindling vatican coffers and justification for all those murders and genocides committed by the vatican and/or in the name of the vatican and/or on behalf of the vatican.
I guess since the genocidal approach failed, now it’s time to schmooze us into heresy, especially given the weak position of the Ecumenical Patriarch regarding the Turks. But selling one’s sould is never the answer.
We have the truth, and as St. Mark of Ephesus said (even when in a numerical minority) – 1 man WITH THE TRUTH constitues a majority.
Against false union,
Bob
I thought we would have at least learned something from the Fall of Byzantium and the works of St. Mark of Ephesus… I guess not.
Union isn’t as simple as changing socks. Since we Orthodox are the true faith, then we should welcome back repentant catholics who come back. However, as Fr. Milovan states, they are also waiting for us, but we cannot leave the truth to join heresy.
History shows who the true faith is. History can track where and who innovated, where and whom committed mass atrocities and attempted forced conversions. There’s Bloody Mary – Queen of Scots, the Spanish Inquistion, the Croatian (vatican supported) genocide against the Serbs during WWII, etc. In spite of all this, we Orthodox must forgive and welcome back true repenters. However, having any kind of “tea” is out of the question, as we didn’t just recently find each other – we’ve had very unfortunate interludes in the past.
Against False Union (which incidentally is the title of a very excellent book I’d recommend to everyone),
Bob
Hey, we Catholics love the smell of our own bluffs.
Why are we talking about an article from an Adventist sectarian paper? We might as well be talking about finding unity under the Whore of Babylon’s skirt.
Till we’re ready to be martyrs next to each other, under the same sword, no real unity is possible. On concrete policy, I’m w/the ROC: cautious strategic alliances first, not concelebration or communion. On sentiment, I’m w/the EP: we are long separated sisters who have only recently found each other; let’s have more tea.
Personally I’ve never been bothered much with pictures of the Pope and Patriarch embracing, shaking hands, drinking coffee or what have you.
I embrace, hold hands with and have had many a meal with a Catholic, my wife. She hasn’t converted, yet, and I don’t necessarily expect she will – though I pray she will.
Cordiality and love are called for on both sides of confessional lines – the only problem is when we try to move or erase or cover those lines and pretend as if they don’t exist and have meaning. The only time I shake my head is when they both try to find ways for the other to participate in liturgical celebrations – it all just seems so pointless and achingly manufactured. The same message of friendliness and openness to dialogue and understanding is stated by simply attending and observing, perhaps speaking after the service, etc. There are pictures of St. Tikhon of Moscow fully vested at an Episcopalian consecration, for instance – he didn’t have to lead a prayer, give a sermon, etc. The same would have been true if he were not vested at all, but simply attended.
Of course, I have puckishly suggested in the past that the Orthodox regain the high ground in such talks by calling Rome’s bluff. They have said that we Orthodox lack nothing but communion with Rome. I have suggested unilaterally announcing a date when all Orthodox can communion with Rome. If Rome allows it to go through than it will have, in practice, undermined Rome’s claims to universal jurisdiction, infallibility and the Immaculate Conception because major churches in communion with them will not acknowledge those doctrines. Rome would never allow it to happen and would be forced to give up the pose that it simply wants unity, unity that those backwards Orthodox won’t even try to achieve, when it really wants capitulation to and acceptance of its own position. Period. A third possibility could be that they would allow a messy state of affairs to exist whereby they don’t really require any change from the Orthodox and live with the disconnect – such is what they do with decidedly heretical artifacts in the Nestorian and Monophysite Eastern Rite churches in communion with Rome. But, we are Orthodox and familiar with messiness and disconnect – we call it economia.
Sadly, I don’t think there will be any union within our lifetime. As you pointed out, there are too many factors on both sides.